Curse

byteme! · Jul 04, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I have a few things I'd like to bring up for discussion but first a little about me.

I purchased GW in '05 about 2-3 weeks after release. Before this time I had read nor heard nothing about this game. I was completely oblivious to it's existence. It was a co-worker of mine who suggested this game to me.

I've always been an RPG fan. Favourite rpg of all time for me was always Final Fantasy 7. I'm very picky about my games. I require content. I require a fast paced game. I don't want to feel like I'm dragging my feet. I also require good game control and visuals. I want the full package basically. For me, a game that costs $50 and only has 15 hours worth of game play before I put it on the shelves is not very attractive.

So my co-worker had suggested this strange new game called, "Guild Wars". I was intrigued. He mentioned how you could...be a ranger with a bow and have a pet side kick....you could be a warrior...you can heal your buddies as a monk....you can cast spells with an elementalist...you can raise an army (literally) of undead and the best part is you have "2" professions. You can be a heavily armored warrior that can heal himself (w/mo). You have 8 skill slots to mix and match what you want to use in battle. The scenery is very beautiful and with your graphics settings up and anti-aliasing on the eye candy is astounding says my co-worker. I was immediately sold on GW. So this is how I came to be the GW player that I am. Now onto the discussion.

Topic: Skill>Time? Time>Skill? Where does it apply if at all?

Now this has been discussed before but I could never grasp the concepts entirely, at least not for PvE. There is always 1 question that has always bothered me and I'm curious to know what some of you all think. Where does skill>time apply? I know the game was originally designed around that skill>time concept. The idea was to allow individuals to be able to quickly compete without having to invest hours upon hours into developing a character. So for the most part this has worked but only for PvP. I'm thinking skill>time applies to PvP. Since after all PvP is where the competition is. Discuss...

As far as PvE is concerned I am a little confused. A lot of people have been saying PvE should be about skill>time. Problem I see is that this is a role playing game. I tend to expect rpg's to soak up lots of time. I mean that's the way the genre has always been known to me and part of the reason I bought the game. It would seem to be PvE from the get go was always about player development. Obtaining armor, buying weapons, and obtaining skills among other things has always been about developing your character. This takes time. PvP is quicker at this so again skill>time applies to PvP.

We play in an instanced game where everything is static. The same group of monsters that wiped your party the last time are still gonna be there the next time you show up. Except this time around you have them scouted or wiki'ed. This same group of monsters are going to react the same way, bring the same skills and patrol the same paths. Once in awhile a group will very a little bit but not enough to be of concern. To me this time>skill applies to PvE. All it takes is enough practice to get familiar with a monster or area and you're good to go. Bring the appropriate counters and you're set. Some people adjust faster then others but at the end we all reach the same goal. The monsters and landscapes never change. You know what you're going to go up against each and every time. There is no element of surprise. Over a period of a couple or more runs and adjusting your skills you could easily stream roll through an area. Where is the skill involved when all it takes is time to get familiar with what you're going to be facing provided you have the necessary means(unlocked skills etc..)? How do you apply skill into the mechanics of GW PvE? Discuss...

Next topic: Imbalance

If you've read everything up until now then perhaps you'll understand what I'm trying to get at. Now it's been awhile but it's "common knowledge" that things like Shadow Form, Ursan, SY, Imbagon, Soul Reaping are imbalanced. Possibly making the game too easy. Now if you have read my last topic you'll understand I feel PvE is time>skill. I could be wrong but it's how I see the world in my eyes. So what do those imbalanced skills have in common. They make things easy and "less time is spent". Thus reducing that time>skill thing. This doesn't mean it's creating more "skill" but just reducing the time and maybe, just maybe shrinking the time>skill gap. I don't know how Ursan and any other imbalanced skill can make a player improve but I feel giving a person access to an area so he can get familiar with it is possibly a good thing. They may very well be inclined to try the same area again with a full 8 skill bar once they feel comfortable with their task at hand. Who knows? I feel under GW's mechanics skill>time in PvE never existed. So I would like to ask you people this. If you truly think Ursan makes bad players or bad players make Ursans(hehe) how so? In an instanced game where every foe you face is predictable where will you find challenge? How would removing or nerfing of an imbalanced skill create this challenge? Where is this skill we're supposed to have? In a game of rock, paper, scissors if you're opponent always uses paper where's the challenge? Discuss...

Keep in mind I'm looking for a discussion. I have not QQ'ed or flamed in my post. I want to be enlightened so please stay on topic. There is room for me to add things but I can't seem to put them into words so I'll let this discussion run it's course and perhaps I'll edit this later on or something. I'm not even sure I worded some of my paragraphs the way I would have wanted to either but I'll just wait and see how the community "interprets" my post before I edit anything.

Hell Raiser · Jul 04, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

GW was my first ever online game (aside from D2, but I never really used Battle.net), May '05 I just happened to see it in the store, and thought it would be cool to check out; 3 years later I'm glad I spotted it

Personally, Skill > Time played has never made sense to me. It sounds like a great design, but I have always felt that your skill level relates to your time played. I remember my first char, a necro, used all fire magic skills from the desert through to the last mission, with 2 or 3 superior runes and non-max armor (I used to wonder why I was dying so quickly, lol). I used to think all of your armor added up (ie I thought my AL was 300[60*5]), and had no idea how degen/regen worked. Even though those have nothing to do with overall skill, the better my knowledge of the game mechanics got, the better I got.

From what I've seen, imbalance has always been a problem, from IWAY to Blood Spike to SWAY, from 55 Prot Bond to new profs to Ursan. It seems every time they nerf something to oblivion, they buff something else to abuse, or someone finds a new skill-set to exploit, or new skills are added that screw everything up. I think it'll always be a problem.

dilan155 · Jul 04, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

aye its like communism, it sounds wonderful but never works. specially in an RPG where, as the OP mentioned, your supposed to spend time, enjoy stuff, gather stuff etc. In a game its almost impossible to make a balance, people will always come up with something thats more powerful thus creating an imbalance.

Icy The Mage · Jul 04, 2008, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Haha, your first experience through Guild Wars sounded similar to mine, I made a necro, which I re-made about 7 times before deleting him finally and deciding I'd rather play as an elementalist... went through the whole game as a flare spammer... my bar pretty much looked like this [Flare][Mind Burn][Healing Breeze][Orison of Healing][Healing Touch][Aura of Restoration][Resurrect][Signet of Capture]

I think it took me about 3 months to get past Minister Cho's Estate, just because I had a bad cooling fan so my computer would restart every 10 minutes, so I'd have to restart (there wasn't a "connect to last session?" option).

I got max armor a.s.a.p. though, and dyed it gold... (back when dye was still able to be mixed) it looked horrible... Finally beat factions, then I deleted my character >_>

So yea...

Still though, as I learned about game mechanics, what skills did what, combining secondary professions, learning about synergy, prices of various things, started farming, PvP, etc... I got to know more about the game and get better. So I pretty much agree that Time = Skill and Skill > Time (think about it, lol)

pumpkin pie · Jul 04, 2008, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

Still though, as I learned about game mechanics, what skills did what, combining secondary professions, learning about synergy, prices of various things, started farming, PvP, etc... I got to know more about the game and get better. So I pretty much agree that Time = Skill and Skill > Time (think about it, lol)

That apply to me as well, But I did not delete my first and second characters. they both have over 3 thousand deaths. Imaging a Necromancer that does not use his skill bar but choose to instead use an axe (reading failure, as I learn to read description that comes with the item in the game, helps a lot, same with reading skill description). The person who introduce me to the game was helping me with Althea Ashes quest, I remember them asking what the hell am I using an axe for, and that was my Ele , yeah a big fan of axes :P

Oh, yeah, regarding armor :P~ My necromancer wore the ascalon armor until it reaches Droknar's Forge. No running lolol He's going to get FoW once I save up enough gold, which is never :P~

Guild Wars is my first online game.

I still think Guild Wars is a time=skill game in the sense that until I can come up with several uber cool super duper kill all with no problem skill bar for all professions for all my character (ursan love/hater stay off) I still am not done with Guild Wars.

Gun Pierson · Jul 04, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

I'm a bit tired so I'm gonna keep it short.

What I see as examples of skill>time in pve:

- getting skills by doing quests or completing objectives instead of acquiring and pumping up skills through grind (repetitive action, not a big lurning curve).

- no über weapons/armor/items etc., but the vanity approach. This is till true in GW today. Consumables can be seen as items obtained through grind though, but a good player will get the materials way faster.

- as less grind as possible in general

I'm gonna skip the imbalance part at this time mate.

Taki · Jul 04, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

You're right about Time > Skill being a PvP thing and lacking in PvE. But RPGs have always been about Time over Skill so that shouldn't come as a big surprise. If you had difficulty with an area or boss you just went out to level up a bit or grind for some super equip and then go back and complete whatever it was without breaking a sweat (some puzzles excluded). There's no need to improve as a player, and in many cases, no means to improve either.

GW originally wanted to get away from that typical grinding format by somehow placing more emphasis on player skill rather than time spent. The level cap is a major part of that. Now, a player will still need to spend the time learning how to play the game and picking up basic knowledge, but they'll reach a period where extra time spent playing/grinding will have little to nil affect on their actual skill. Playing PvE all the time, the same build most of the time, or against competition that does not force you to improve also does basically nothing to better the players' skill. This is where the Skill > Time thing comes into play.

To illustrate, a level 20 player that racks up 60DP from the first encounter with a double damage aoe Ele boss can no longer "out-level" the boss to beat it. He will need to learn more about damage mitigation, shutdown, aggro, or simply how to pile on more damage faster than his team of henchmen can take. Once learned, he can apply those basic strategies anywhere, at any time, with little challenge from a static environment meant to let the player succeed. Doing that over and over will hardly make him a better player but at least he'll be more knowledgeable about certain areas. So Skill > Time does not really hold true here.

Put that same player in PvP however, and he'll learn a great deal more in addition to improving his playstyle. Not only will he need to become familiar with a much larger library of skills, but a totally different set of both individual and team tactics as well as the all important field/situation awareness. It takes a bit more time to get a good grip of these compared to PvE and others will be better at these than some but even then, there will be a point where more time will yield less impressive results. After that point, it's the more skillful player(s) who has the advantage in a matchup and not the one with the most time spent. So Skill > Time does applies here.

That's how it used to be, in theory, anyway. Today, welcome to Build Wars!!!
(but that's another story)

mazey vorstagg · Jul 04, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

I don't think it's very hard to understand:

In PVP:
Skill>Time means that a newly dinged lvl 20 could beat a lvl 20 that has been lvl 20 for months and months, simply because your character doesn't get better in ways that can only be achieved with a long time investment.

In PVE:
Skill>Time suggests that a newly dinged lvl 20 could beat a dungeon/mission in the same time as/with the same number of deaths as a long time lvl 20.

In both modes
Skill>Time means that your characters do not improve over a long period of time, once they are lvl 20 they do not have any innate advantages against other players except their skill bar and how they use it.

Obviously things like skills power being based on time invested (such as ursan and PVE skills) doesn't agree with this statement. Neither do consumables, as they require money which requires time investment.

The original idea of GW was that a player could have reached lvl 20 yesterday and started doing high end pvp or pve today. Whereas in WoW you need months of grind at lvl 70, slowly working your way up the ranks.

Squawkers · Jul 04, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

I don't know where some of you got this, but PvP is skill > time. You're telling me that is takes hours upon hours to be better than someone else is PvP? Within a few hours, you could completely make a build identical to one from pvx and then run it in RA. I can say without a doubt that your skill is a more important factor than the time you have spent to get unlockables. With so few time required to be on a level playing field, I don't understand where the time > skill comes in.

As for PvE, I don't know. I know with the new titles making you grind just to use a skill brings in the time> skill. That's probably the reason why I no longer play PvE. I own all campaigns + EotN and have never played NF or EotN for more than 1 hour each. Oh well! I dislike them that badly.

Clarissa F · Jul 04, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

as far as skill over time, it works in PvP better than any game out there. Even teams, even levels, even availability of skills...all mean you need skill to win. No build is a win button in PvP, because all the skills can be stripped/blocked/nerfed, and in the lower levels it's chaotic enough that anything can work for a short time.

In PvE, the only way you could put the time>skill to rest would be to change enemy dynamics/skillsets every few weeks to a month, thereby invalidating the wiki and making it necessary to bring skill for a multitude of situations.

As for Imbalance, that became vivid with Nightfall and EotN, introducing PvE skills and the Blessings(still wish they'd make them enchantments. Say hi to Rend Enchantments, wammo.) It got more people playing, and got more threads on the forums. I think this is balance thread 1,264, or something. SMS got to elite status by changing up their builds, not running the same builds over and again. The average player may think of it as Build Wars. Then again, the same guy probably goes to Wiki whenever he encounters a new situation, instead of using the knowledge he has to learn to adapt.

crazybanshee · Jul 04, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Eh, the people who make gw are human, and make human mistakes. They don't WANT a horrifically imbalanced game that people complain about and don't play. When they do things, they test them first for some amount of time, but a dozen people testing a skill for a week are not going to figure out the loophole, whereas several thousand people playing with it are eventually going to find that one combination where that skill is just ridiculously overpowered.

Kusandaa · Jul 04, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

I'm all for skill over time... probably because I picked up GW 3 years ago and my experience was definitely different than someone's who picked it up 3 months ago. We might roughly be at the same level campaign-wise, maybe cash-wise even. But whoever has been playing for 3 years has done it without Ursan, PVE skills, consumables, Sabway, paraway, etc; they've learned as they advanced through the game - runes, skill synergy, what to use and what NOT to use depending on the area. We RAN tank'n'spank, we observed how it worked, and we found effective ways.

Skill was over time, indeed.

Today, people have it all right away - Wikis, Guru, other fansites, they have friends who played for years and who EXPERIENCED the areas...

People today have the access to time > skill. I think it's what's pissing some people off, and it all comes down to their epeens in the end.

I've done it without the imba stuff, I've done it with the imba stuff, I can do it again without. Do people even realize that? Doubt so. Actually I don't think people WOULD be able to that... and IMO that's why there's so much discussion about nerfs/buffs and such, especially concerning issues like Ursan (time > skill).

Clarissa F · Jul 04, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

I give a page, tops, before this devolves into a DL/DU debate.

Knight O Cydonia · Jul 04, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

im confused.

skill playing guild wars (how good you are) > (should reward you more than) time spent playing the game (i.e grinding)

but time playing the game = experience

experience = skill (how else do you get more skilled other than getting more experienced?)

Therefore Skill = Time

QED?

Tyla · Jul 04, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

^
That being true, you shouldn't be able to jump into a game and be able to complete it straight away or have to grind in order to complete it 100% straight away.

Angelina Collins · Jul 04, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

to understand Imbalance, you have to know what it means in this game. When one build have an advantage over another build, or when one ability have an advantage over an other ability, spell, skill, ect.

The first spell/skill to be nerfed was chain lightning, because of one map in HA, the alter map, where a group mind you, a party of elemist using the skill/spell simitanously could wipe an enire party.

Anet's goal has been to make all spells/skills/abilities equal to all other professions inwhich they do the same overall damage at different rates. Any skill that does more or heals more is considered overpowered.

They want to game to be like chess, more about stratagy and tactics and less about speed killing with powerful spells/skills. That is the balance they want.

In all honesty, people do not want that, they want super overpowered monsters and overpowered skills. Ursans blessing provides players with an overpowered advantage according to Anet, but you must remember that ursans does not start out overpowered, you need a R10 rank, then it's overpowered, but so are the monsters in DoA.

Anet failed at balance, because they caused more imbalance to try to achieve balance. balance cuases time>skill to occurr, imbalance causes skill>time to occurr, IMO.

Kusandaa · Jul 04, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

^
That being true, you shouldn't be able to jump into a game and be able to complete it straight away or have to grind in order to complete it 100% straight away.

I agree to that - you shouldn't be able to, but you can. This game evolves. Skills themselves are updated, added, nerfed, people find better ways to use them, some are completely outdated for maximum efficiency... I'm pretty sure if we'd have had to have done all 3 campaigns with the same skills, people would have long stopped playing, considering the content we currently have. 3 campaigns + 1 expansion... eventually people get bored of them. So what's left are armors, weapons, leet areas for leet loot, and even there, people still get bored of them. Now imagine that with the same skills, same professions. Sure we'd have skill over time but my god it would be boring. (So I can understand why they're being added - however, as I've mentionned in my previous post, I'm all for skill over time... I'm guessing however, that there are limits).

Which is why I'm actually pretty glad we have skill balances (as crappy as they sometimes are) and new content is/was being added (depending on how you see it... newest content we had were weapons, blah).

I guess it's a two-edged sword. Skills will be buffed, others will be nerfed, and some will always be used more. Imbalance will be created.

Abedeus · Jul 04, 2008, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight O Cydonia

im confused.

skill playing guild wars (how good you are) > (should reward you more than) time spent playing the game (i.e grinding)

but time playing the game = experience

experience = skill (how else do you get more skilled other than getting more experienced?)

Therefore Skill = Time

QED?

Nope.

Time played = experience
Ursan = no experience
Time played with ursan = no experience (because -1 x 1 = -1)
No experience > skill.

Trub · Jul 04, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I've done it without the imba stuff, I've done it with the imba stuff, I can do it again without. Do people even realize that? Doubt so. Actually I don't think people WOULD be able to that... and IMO that's why there's so much discussion about nerfs/buffs and such, especially concerning issues like Ursan (time > skill).

That, to me...is the heart of the matter.
There was a time in the game's life...that it was so fresh..so challenging, that there was absolutly NO reason to buff this, or nerf that.
And there were certainly no reasons to create the invinci-modes that we have today.
I'm at a loss sometimes when I log in....where have all the decent players gone?
Where are the 'game-breakers' that amazed us with their abilities to balance an entire team so quickly..everyone was in, and having the time of ther lives, either pvp, or pve...and actually learning from the experience?
I won't leave GW just yet...but I really can't find a reason to hang in there much longer.
This game is broken.
It's beyond a balance.
We have no information given to us yet as to GW2, and if this fail will continue there.
NO..I don't QQ..I state my opinions..and leave.
Thank you for your time.

I agree with all Kusandaa has posted so far.

kostolomac · Jul 04, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I won't touch the skill>time issue , but rather balance. In pvp it's relatively easy to balance stuff , since the opposing parties are made of human players which want to win , and use all tools at their disposal. In pve it's much more "complicated" to balance since the opposing party will always behave the same. Rather than team1 vs. team2 balance like in pvp , pve should be balanced around team1 so that this team has multiple viable options to complete the task. This idea worked fine until the elite areas where some professions thanks to the devs just can't "cut it". It's not the players fault for using overpowered stuff or not using all professions , since their mentality is similar to pvp , they use the best and most efficient tools at their disposal. The devs should have understood that by now , and least put all professions at equal ground so that a team of skilled players whose bars synergize can do the task relatively regardless of profession (healers are a must everywhere so it can't be completely random).

Quote:

There was a time in the game's life...that it was so fresh..so challenging, that there was absolutly NO reason to buff this, or nerf that.

It's completely understandable to fell like that , PvE is not meant to provide everlasting challenge. The more you play it , the less challenging it becomes.